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JimS
09-23-2007, 05:02 PM
I spent the night at Mispah last night, and hiked up to Mt. Pierce for both a sunset and a sunrise. I thought it a unique opportunity to catch the last sunset of summer, and the first sunrise of autumn.

The tundra is in it's full autumn coat, and I had great light to hightlight it...

~Jimhttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1249/1429532106_2ef9de4c3e_o.jpg

Gorque
09-23-2007, 05:40 PM
That's a great photo. Thanks for sharing it. :)

Brad
09-23-2007, 06:49 PM
Jim, how come you don't take me along with you? What a great sight - and a wonderful site too.

Steve M
09-23-2007, 09:16 PM
That is a very awesome shot. Wish I was there.

Patrad Fischroy
09-24-2007, 08:36 AM
Ok Jim, you can't do that too often, I am just now getting my breath back. That one definitely took it away. I now live in the Rockies and I love it here, but it is sights like these that keep me coming back to the Northeast year after year in the fall.

FisherCat
09-24-2007, 04:11 PM
Oh yeah! That's it. Tell me Jim S, do you experiment with over/under exposure? Or was that one a straight out camera meter?

JimS
09-24-2007, 04:30 PM
Oh yeah! That's it. Tell me Jim S, do you experiment with over/under exposure? Or was that one a straight out camera meter?

First off, thanks for your kind remarks...when I saw this scene as the sun broke the horizon, I knew I'd have a winner.

FisherCat...There IS a trick to shots like this, and no it's not photoshop. This is exactly as my meter read the scene, and exactly how my camera recorded the light coming through the lens...

The key is to control the light coming through the lens.

Shots like this have too much range of light for film/sensors to pick up. You would normally end up with either a dark foreground or a white sky. I used special filters that allow you to reduce the light from the sky for a balanced exposure throughout. These filters are called Graduated Neutral Density Filters...see this picture for example (http://www.singh-ray.com/RevGrad.jpg)

This same effect can be done digitally, but I like the results with the conventional filters. To do it digitially, mount the camera on a tripod, take the picture twice, once overexposed, once underexposed and put them together in photoshop.
I don't like this method, as things always move, and filters give me more instant satisfaction of seeing a finished product.

As a last point, if you look at the summit of Eisenhower, its darker than the rest of the mountains...this is because it's in the dark part of the filter, so this method isn't perfect either...

Brad
09-24-2007, 05:20 PM
Do you hold the filter strip across the lens? How do you hold it in place?

I followed the links to the P holder. Interesting little deal.

JimS
09-24-2007, 05:54 PM
Do you hold the filter strip across the lens? How do you hold it in place?

I use a cokin holder, the system on the front of my lens looks like this:
http://www.cokin.co.uk/pages/main.htm

It rotates to allign the filter properly, and has 3 slots for filters...

Jim

Brad
09-24-2007, 06:00 PM
I could have used one yesterday. The waterfalls were in the shade but the sky's light was overpowering.

Mike D
09-24-2007, 06:43 PM
We tried a neural density (or was it a polarizing) filter on the North View cam to darken the sky. I'm sure you've noticed that it gets washed out during bright sky conditions. We are probably going to juggle around our cameras instead, installing some very high quality, high res cameras in our best spots and move the others to less optimal locations once we roll those out (hint for the future).

[Edit: that's "neutral" density... the neural ones have a hallucinogenic effect... still in R&D. ]

Mike D
09-24-2007, 06:46 PM
I spent the night at Mispah last night, and hiked up to Mt. Pierce for both a sunset and a sunrise. I thought it a unique opportunity to catch the last sunset of summer, and the first sunrise of autumn.

The tundra is in it's full autumn coat, and I had great light to hightlight it...


2 questions Jim: can you post the full-size version and give me those pictures of Torin!!!

Brad
09-24-2007, 07:30 PM
For the camera buffs here is the EXIF information on this picture. Jim, you should really upgrade your Adobe Elements 2.0 to 5.0. It is a lot better version.

Exif Sub IFD

* Exposure Time (1 / Shutter Speed) = 4/10 second = 0.40000 second
* Lens F-Number/F-Stop = 13/1 = F13.00
* Exposure Program = manual control (1)
* ISO Speed Ratings = 200
* Exif Version = 0221
* Original Date/Time = 2007:09:23 05:47:58
* Digitization Date/Time = 2007:09:23 05:47:58
* Shutter Speed Value (APEX) = 86634/65536
Shutter Speed (Exposure Time) = 1/2.50 second
* Aperture Value (APEX) = 485024/65536
Aperture = F13.00
* Exposure Bias (EV) = 0/2 = 0.00
* Flash = Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode
* Focal Length = 24/1 mm = 24.00 mm
* FlashPix Version = 0100
* Colour Space = sRGB (1)
* Image Width = 720 pixels
* Image Height = 480 pixels
* Focal Plane X-Resolution = 3504000/885 = 3959.32
* Focal Plane Y-Resolution = 2336000/590 = 3959.32
* Focal Plane X/Y-Resolution Unit = inch (2)
* Custom Rendered = normal process (0)
* Exposure Mode = manual exposure (1)
* White Balance = auto (0)
* Scene Capture Type = standard (0)

JimS
09-24-2007, 07:51 PM
All,

In addition to the exif Info, I used a 4 stops of gnd filters (2 two stop filters) and a polarizer filter.

Brad...
I just got a new computer and am saving up for Photoshop CS3...I can't justify the price of elements in the mean time...

Mike,
I just got a new computer, and will finally be able to get my pictures in one place and find the Torin shots soon!

JimS
09-24-2007, 07:53 PM
We tried a neural density (or was it a polarizing) filter on the North View cam to darken the sky. I'm sure you've noticed that it gets washed out during bright sky conditions. We are probably going to juggle around our cameras instead, installing some very high quality, high res cameras in our best spots and move the others to less optimal locations once we roll those out (hint for the future).

[Edit: that's "neutral" density... the neural ones have a hallucinogenic effect... still in R&D. ]


Mike, A straight Neutral density filter, one without graduation, will just slow the camera down, and make it work harder for the right exposure. They do sell round, screw on GND filters, that might work...or new high quality cameras could work as well!:D

FisherCat
09-24-2007, 09:40 PM
That's great stuff Jim, thank you very much. I've been using a Nikon N80 for years and am making the switch to digital. On my N80 I did make frequent use of a ND filter and found it quite good. Sunrise and sunset provide such great colors, yet they can be the hardest to capture, and they do provide such soft, vibrant light. As I make the conversion to digital I will definitely keep your excellent points in mind>
Thanks!

Patrad Fischroy
09-25-2007, 08:26 AM
There is another method that could be used, albeit via "photoshopping". It can be done in a couple of ways. The technique is called high dynamic range or HDR. It can be done in photoshop or another program by the name of photomatrix. Basically you take 3 exposures, bracketing the "correct" exposure. generally -2, 0, and +2 stops. Then combine the three exposures into one photo via the software. The different exposures allow the camera sensors to grab different parts of the image within their best range of response. You can "cheat" abit by taking a "raw" image from the camera and "expose" it in the same 3 steps to give a similar effect.

One result of using this over the graduated filter is that in the casr of Jim's shot, he could avoid the darkness of the top of Eisenhower..

Please let me be clear, I am in no way trying to criticize that shot, it continues to take my breath away whenever, I look at it. I just wanted to let some of you all have another tool in the chest.

Bill O
09-25-2007, 09:25 AM
There is another method that could be used, albeit via "photoshopping". It can be done in a couple of ways. The technique is called high dynamic range or HDR. It can be done in photoshop or another program by the name of photomatrix.

I just installed Photoshop CS 2 on my old laptop and was wondering what kind of memory does it take to run the HDR process?

There's nothing wrong with photoshopping. If Ansel Adams had Photoshop, he would have used it. They did it all the time back in the dark room through burning, dodging, and many other physical touch-ups.

JimS
09-25-2007, 09:25 AM
There is another method that could be used, albeit via "photoshopping". It can be done in a couple of ways. The technique is called high dynamic range or HDR. It can be done in photoshop or another program by the name of photomatrix. Basically you take 3 exposures, bracketing the "correct" exposure. generally -2, 0, and +2 stops. Then combine the three exposures into one photo via the software. The different exposures allow the camera sensors to grab different parts of the image within their best range of response. You can "cheat" abit by taking a "raw" image from the camera and "expose" it in the same 3 steps to give a similar effect.

One result of using this over the graduated filter is that in the casr of Jim's shot, he could avoid the darkness of the top of Eisenhower..

Please let me be clear, I am in no way trying to criticize that shot, it continues to take my breath away whenever, I look at it. I just wanted to let some of you all have another tool in the chest.


Dark Eisenhower is certainly not taken as a criticism, and honestly I apprecaite any thoughts that you may have. I, for instance, don't really like the upper right corner...

As for HDR...It is a tool, but I hate it. It seems to render everything a midtone, makes for unnatural skies, and things always move. Yes, I have seen some done well, but for someone trying to render a scene as close to natural as possible, I'll stay away from this technology...

Bill O
09-25-2007, 09:29 AM
As for HDR...It is a tool, but I hate it. It seems to render everything a midtone, makes for unnatural skies, and things always move. Yes, I have seen some done well, but for someone trying to render a scene as close to natural as possible, I'll stay away from this technology...

I guess I haven't seen too many HDR shots. The ones I have seen do have an un-natural look. But, just for arguments sake. Isn't HDR much more realistic in terms of what the human eye can see? What's the range of light that the human eye can see as compared to a digital camera or B&W film?

JimS
09-25-2007, 09:52 AM
I guess I haven't seen too many HDR shots. The ones I have seen do have an un-natural look. But, just for arguments sake. Isn't HDR much more realistic in terms of what the human eye can see? What's the range of light that the human eye can see as compared to a digital camera or B&W film?

That IS the goal, I just don't think that 1) the software is there yet and 2) Users go overboard with it...

Examples: http://www.flickr.com/groups/hdr
A few work here, most look gaudy, overdone, and unnatural...

Mike D
09-25-2007, 10:06 AM
Mike, A straight Neutral density filter, one without graduation, will just slow the camera down, and make it work harder for the right exposure. They do sell round, screw on GND filters, that might work...or new high quality cameras could work as well!:D

Jim, I don't know anything about filters, but John Mitchell (to others, John Mitchell is a retired professional photographer on staff) is the one who advised me on the purchase (btw, it was a screw on filter).

New cameras it is.

Mike D
09-25-2007, 10:08 AM
I prefer Picasa's "I'm feeling Lucky" :)

JimS
09-25-2007, 10:14 AM
Jim, I don't know anything about filters, but John Mitchell (to others, John Mitchell is a retired professional photographer on staff) is the one who advised me on the purchase (btw, it was a screw on filter).

New cameras it is.

To clarify my point, a ND filter does cut the light reaching the sensor, so it is true that it will save the ccd. John is right. However, without adjusting the aperature or 'speed' settings, the camera just works overtime to get the origional light that it desires for a proper exposure. John is right in his thinking to save the sensor though...

My real point though is that a round graduated filter will result in a better overall exposure while saving the ccd.

Patrad Fischroy
09-25-2007, 11:42 AM
I just installed Photoshop CS 2 on my old laptop and was wondering what kind of memory does it take to run the HDR process?

There's nothing wrong with photoshopping. If Ansel Adams had Photoshop, he would have used it. They did it all the time back in the dark room through burning, dodging, and many other physical touch-ups.

I am not entirely sure, but on mine, with 2 gig, I have no trouble. As with most in photoshop, the more the merrier. Usually with lower memory you can just bump up the scratch disk and use the hard drive as virtual memory. This does affect the speed.