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Rich
10-15-2008, 10:02 PM
The summit gets some beautiful rime ice formations. Especially the feather type. I think it would be pretty cool to watch a time lapse of rime forming. Is it possible for a camera to be set up when riming conditions are favorable?
Thanks.

Bill O
10-16-2008, 07:11 AM
We'll see what they say, but my guess is that its not an easy task.

The camera would need to be outside where it would gather rime itself.

Rich
10-16-2008, 09:29 AM
That's true, Bill. But, wouldn't it be fun to watch? Often there's rime forming on the north facing windows and I guess that would work, seeing the camera could be inside, but I was thinking of watching rime form on something like....one of those .50 viewing machines on the deck. That would be cool! Like you said, we'll see what the staff say. Staff? What say you?

Knapper
10-17-2008, 04:32 AM
I will try to tackle this. We have tried this in house and we have had outsiders try it. There are a couple issues that make this hard to do. One issue is equipment. We do not have any disposable equipment to try this on in an outside exposure. In an inside exposure of just looking at the windows, we do not have any cameras that do an automatic time lapse. This would be something we would have to assign to someone to do all do by manually snapping the pics, something I am sure our bosses would not be too keen on since it would take away from our other work. Next up is time. Rime takes a long, long time to form usually. At least the kind of rime worth looking at in the feather form. Even if we just put the DV camera out for an hour, nothing really exciting would be seen, we've tried. But leaving it out leads to the other problem, heating and icing of the camera itself. The lens begins to fog if you take it out without adjusting to the cold and even then, it starts to rime as well as the equipment itself. So when you take it back in, you run the risk of water damage once things begin to thaw. We did try a heated box with national geographic. Even then though, we were told the results were not very good, but they were able to get other interesting pics, so stay tuned on when that will be possibly published. But that is not to say rime-lapse photography is a total wash. I have some ideas I am working on for a future obscast, so hopefully they look good once I am done.

Brad
10-17-2008, 06:28 AM
Ryan,

A thought would be an unused web camera. True you would have to do the heated box to protect the camera. But, they have the ability to send an image to an FTP site every xx seconds or minutes. For example, I am doing it for the sunrise in Maine off my camera every 10 seconds right now.

Then you could pull the images and create the time lapse. Just a different approach.

Rich
10-17-2008, 11:30 AM
I will try to tackle this. We have tried this in house and we have had outsiders try it. There are a couple issues that make this hard to do. One issue is equipment. We do not have any disposable equipment to try this on in an outside exposure. In an inside exposure of just looking at the windows, we do not have any cameras that do an automatic time lapse. This would be something we would have to assign to someone to do all do by manually snapping the pics, something I am sure our bosses would not be too keen on since it would take away from our other work. Next up is time. Rime takes a long, long time to form usually. At least the kind of rime worth looking at in the feather form. Even if we just put the DV camera out for an hour, nothing really exciting would be seen, we've tried. But leaving it out leads to the other problem, heating and icing of the camera itself. The lens begins to fog if you take it out without adjusting to the cold and even then, it starts to rime as well as the equipment itself. So when you take it back in, you run the risk of water damage once things begin to thaw. We did try a heated box with national geographic. Even then though, we were told the results were not very good, but they were able to get other interesting pics, so stay tuned on when that will be possibly published. But that is not to say rime-lapse photography is a total wash. I have some ideas I am working on for a future obscast, so hopefully they look good once I am done.

Thanks soo much, Ryan. I'll just have to come up an assist you with this project! Be right there...

h2oeco
10-17-2008, 02:07 PM
I've got a summit volunteer week coming up (Nov. 19th-26th), and would enjoy working on this...

Ryan, how long is typical for the amount of time needed for "good" rime ice to form?

Brad
10-18-2008, 09:04 AM
I've got a summit volunteer week coming up (Nov. 19th-26th), and would enjoy working on this...

Ryan, how long is typical for the amount of time needed for "good" rime ice to form?
This would be great. If MWO can give you FTP space to store the pictures, fine. If not, let me know and I will create an album on the MWO Fotki site. Then the images can be FTPed to the album as they get grabbed.

Let me know if I can help from flatland country.

h2oeco
10-18-2008, 09:21 AM
Thanks Brad. I actually have a small wireless web cam (Axis) that is IP-based. This might come in handy, but is still subject to the heat/icing and (not) waterproof issue. Worst case, when conditions are right for rime, I could go out every 1/2 hour, hour, whatever, and take a picture of a specific area/location, and later on, assemble them into a time-lapse movie or animated GIF. Sounds like Ryan has some ideas on this too.

Brad
10-18-2008, 10:30 AM
If you want to config the camera to FTP images to the MWO Fotki site before heading up there, I can work with you on this. That camera should work well - wireless back to MWO (assuming they have an SSID) - then FTP to Fotki.

Spyboy has the ability to download the images from Fotki and put them together into a video file. We have done this before. I am not sure if he has a limit to the number of image files. But, he has a lot of compute horsepower for this type of stuff and all the needed video software.

Pop an e-mail to be at bradstreet @ principia.edu and I can give you the camera settings to do the uploads. If Ryan has other options that seem better, let me know.

I have created an album for the images at http://public.fotki.com/MWO/saved/misc/rime/ - if we use this approach folks will be able to see the individual files as they get uploaded.

h2oeco
10-18-2008, 04:45 PM
Sounds good Brad. I will probably get in touch with you as things get closer.

I know that the summit is well wired, but I don't know the extent of their wireless capability. As Ryan mentioned, the main problem will be keeping the camera working in the prevailing conditions. I just looked up the operating conditions for the camera that I have... The manufacturer lists "5-50 °C (41-122 °F)
Humidity 20 - 80% RH (non-condensing)" - obviously not typical MW conditions in late November... We'll see...

Brad
10-18-2008, 05:01 PM
Ed,

My outside web cameras have a similar temp range. But, they keep on running through the winter to 5 and 10 degrees below F. As soon as it starts to get cold I lock them down so the pan/tilt/zoom is turned off. They have worked fine that way. Lens focus is still a moving part.

h2oeco
10-18-2008, 05:23 PM
OK - good to know.

Brad
11-12-2008, 08:04 AM
Ed, when do you head for the summit? wondering when the web camera testing might start.

h2oeco
11-12-2008, 08:22 AM
I'll be in NH as of the 18th, and head up to the summit the morning of the 19th.

Brad
11-12-2008, 12:42 PM
I emptied the test pictures out of the album and it is all set for you. Remember, there is no space limitation. So, let as many images go as you want.

spyboy
11-12-2008, 02:52 PM
Matt and I worked on this on his webserver. He would pull the public webcam image every 15 minutes and cache it on his server (he did this for the Vista sidebar app we wrote, that way it wouldn't impact the MWO servers)

Every 15 minutes, after it grabs the latest shot, it recompiles them all into a flash movie (time lapse), it keeps doing this all day until a set time.

http://www.devclarity.com/mwo/movies.html

We also snag images for the hazecam.net site (the double webcam images) and make those timelapses as well

http://www.devclarity.com/timelapse/

btw: here's the Vista sidebar app
http://www.devclarity.com/blog/post/Vista-Sidebar-Gadget.aspx

Kirk

h2oeco
11-12-2008, 03:02 PM
Thanks for the info Brad and Kirk. I will probably bring two web/video cameras with me - One is a small Axis network webcam - has all the normal functions for ftp, etc., and is scriptable. The other is a standalone mini video camera camera, waterproof, that records to an SD card. I think the main issue will be keeping the camera from icing up. The other issue will be securely mounting the camera so that it doesn't get blown around. I'm sure that Ryan or others know what has been tried before, and will have other ideas, so that knowledge will help.

As an alternative, I can always take pictures at intervals with a still camera, using physical references points to keep the frame the same each time.

We'll see.

Ed

Brad
11-12-2008, 08:14 PM
Even if you have to take stills I would guess that Kirk has some special software that would take the movement out as it creates the video. If you need a place to store extra image files, let me know and I will create another album for you. Then you can FTP or use the Fotki built in features to upload the files. When you get home you can download them or whatever. It could be a handy place to store them if the SD card gets full.

h2oeco
11-12-2008, 08:24 PM
Thanks Brad. My hope is that the mini video camera will do the trick - it can be set to 1fps if need be. Once we have the footage we want, it would be relatively easy to pull it into iMovie, and speed it up, so that hours of footage are reduced to minutes. The camera does not record in an iMovie compatible format, but there are a number of ways to convert it.

Also, if the conditions are right for rime, we can try a number of methods - do the video, do stills as backup, see what produces the best result...

KathyC
11-12-2008, 08:44 PM
Have a great ride up from Jersey, I wish I were going....:(

I just have to say that I really enjoy seeing people coming together from different places to try to achieve something. This would be a really cool thing to see, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

spyboy
11-12-2008, 08:45 PM
use a tripod! :)

Kirk


Even if you have to take stills I would guess that Kirk has some special software that would take the movement out as it creates the video. If you need a place to store extra image files, let me know and I will create another album for you. Then you can FTP or use the Fotki built in features to upload the files. When you get home you can download them or whatever. It could be a handy place to store them if the SD card gets full.

h2oeco
11-12-2008, 08:56 PM
I do plan to. :-)

Though, the wind could make that more difficult...

h2oeco
11-25-2008, 12:19 PM
Trying to film the rime ice as we speak... The camera is mounted in the parapet, shooting one of the pipe mounts. Have been clearing the lens every 15 minutes or so, we'll see what happens...

Ed

Bill O
11-25-2008, 12:25 PM
Something tells me you're not getting true rime right now. Southeast winds, strong storm points to glaze. Just a guess.

h2oeco
11-25-2008, 12:32 PM
Based on the observers' opinions, and my limited experience, it appears to be rime, not glaze. What we're getting right now is the typical white, rough, feathery ice, not your basic clear, smooth glaze ice.

Ed

Brad
11-25-2008, 05:14 PM
It looks like you are storing the images in the camera at this point - as I do not see anything flowing to the Fotki site.

Bill O
11-25-2008, 05:26 PM
+PL, 99mph winds and glaze ice. Sounds nice up there about now.

h2oeco
11-25-2008, 05:41 PM
It looks like you are storing the images in the camera at this point - as I do not see anything flowing to the Fotki site.

The camera that I used is actually standalone - it is essentially a small (about 1/2" in diameter, by 3 inches), waterproof video camera on a 10' cable, that records to an SD card. I was able to mount the camera through a hole next to the parapet door, and keep the recorder inside, relatively warm, and plugged into power. The camera was in place for about 8 hours. The lens/camera did ice up pretty quickly, as expected, but I deiced it at least once an hour, sometime more. Ryan will probably edit the footage tonight, and we'll see what we end up with.

Ed

Charlie
11-25-2008, 07:56 PM
i hope this works it would be nice to see it

thanks to all of you who are trying to make this happen

Rich
11-26-2008, 09:25 AM
Yes...thank you!

Knapper
11-26-2008, 04:58 PM
It will be at least another week before an attempt at the rime-lapse video is made. I was going to edit the video last night but Ed and I could not get the format changed to work with imovie. Ed will be taking the video to his computer then providing me with the compatible video that I can edit down. Look for it on either the Dec. 8th obscast or on youtube around that date (still undecided where it will be uploaded. It comes down to how good it comes out.)

Til then...

h2oeco
12-10-2008, 07:40 AM
Ryan has posted the rime-lapse in his comment... You can see it/read it here:

http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/comments#9-21-49

Ed

Rich
12-10-2008, 02:01 PM
WOW!!! That was a lot of work for both Ed and Ryan! Much appreciated by many I hope, a least by me! Ed, I hope it didn't take away from your summit duties!!?? It gives a good idea how rime forms. THANK YOU!

Knapper
12-10-2008, 05:18 PM
WOW!!! That was a lot of work for both Ed and Ryan! Much appreciated by many I hope, a least by me! Ed, I hope it didn't take away from your summit duties!!?? It gives a good idea how rime forms. THANK YOU!

Thanks for the compliment. It did not take away from Ed nor my time on the summits. Ed did his work during the day and still had time to cook in the evening. As for me, most of the work I did was on my free time so not to impare my daily/weekly/monthly duties. Look for another attempt possibly in March or April in not sooner.

Cheers

Steve M
12-10-2008, 05:24 PM
Good job guys! Not bad for a first try. It will get better with time I'm sure.

h2oeco
12-10-2008, 05:50 PM
Glad you're all enjoying the video - it was a fun project to work on. As Ryan alluded to in his comments, now that we've done this once, we know how to do it better next time. I'll be back on the summit in March, and will bring the camera with me for another try if the weather cooperates.

Ed

KathyC
12-10-2008, 07:36 PM
I really found the detail in the comments and the video very intersting. Thank you so much for your hard work.

Brad
12-11-2008, 05:44 AM
Glad you're all enjoying the video - it was a fun project to work on. As Ryan alluded to in his comments, now that we've done this once, we know how to do it better next time. I'll be back on the summit in March, and will bring the camera with me for another try if the weather cooperates.

Ed
So, you were pleased with the way that small camera worked in those conditions?

h2oeco
12-11-2008, 07:24 AM
Yes, the camera worked well. The camera and cable are completely waterproof, but the recorder is not. I was able to mount the camera outside, and lead the cable inside to the recorder. Icing was really the only problem with the filming, but, when you are trying to film the formation of rime ice, what do you expect? :-)

A picture of the camera/cable and recorder is below:

http://www.ecomalley.com/mwoposts/cam.jpg

Steve M
12-11-2008, 08:32 AM
That's cool. Did I read correctly that this camera is a backup camera from an SUV?

RI Swamp Yankee
12-11-2008, 12:48 PM
This doesn't look like your basic cheap "spycam", it looks like a serious piece of equipment.

http://www.elmo.co.jp/suv-cam/en/index.html

h2oeco
12-11-2008, 06:05 PM
That's cool. Did I read correctly that this camera is a backup camera from an SUV?

The name of the product is "SUV Cam Pro" - has nothing to do with SUVs...

Ed

Brad
12-11-2008, 08:42 PM
And you expect something called "Elmo" to be able to handle those conditions?

h2oeco
12-11-2008, 09:55 PM
What do you have in mind? Putting a stuffed "Elmo" character out there, and filming it to see what happens? Might make an interesting Obscast...

Steve M
12-11-2008, 11:41 PM
What do you have in mind? Putting a stuffed "Elmo" character out there, and filming it to see what happens? Might make an interesting Obscast...

Poor Elmo might get frostbite!:(

Brad
12-12-2008, 06:08 AM
Is it "frostbit" or "frostbited"?

Patrad Fischroy
12-12-2008, 09:05 AM
Ed, would it be feasible/practical or even effective to mount the camera in a tube of some sort that might block the formation of rime on the camera lens? You would still have to keep the open end of the tube free of ice and there would be some "tunnel-vision" in the view. I would assume that the "camera in a tube" would have to be oriented with the prevailing winds across the field of view.

h2oeco
12-12-2008, 09:19 AM
Yes. I have actually thought about this sort of mount for next time, and emailed Ryan some ideas about it. The camera would be mounted in clear plastic tubing - probably some sort of stiff aquarium tubing, near the open mouth. In theory, this would help keep some ice off the lens, but I actually think that the wind/fog/etc. would swirl around and into the tube, and might actually promote the formation of ice on the camera. The ideal thing would be this sort of mount with "warm" (not actually heated, just "room temperature" air from the top of the tower) blowing out of the tube, around/past the camera. This would do two things - one, provide a bit of warmth to camera to lessen the formation of ice, and two, hopefully the flow of air would keep fog/water/ice pellets, etc. from even entering the tube and getting on the camera/lens. The camera can handle the cold, ice, etc. and is waterproof, just need to keep the ice form physically obscuring the lens.

Ed

Patrad Fischroy
12-12-2008, 10:30 AM
Some of this could be tested without the camera and with a minimum of observer attention by setting up a tube in the configuration noted. It would probably be necessary to also set up a wind direction indicator very near to the end of the tube to see at what orientation the system would work best.

Steve M
12-12-2008, 10:45 AM
Ed, just a thought about the warm air. I can't be certain, but I think you may need to keep the air blowing through the tube as close as you can to the outside air temp so you don't end up with a fogged lens. Or, maybe warm air but very dry warm air. I don't know if this is possible but I think any humidity would be a detriment.

h2oeco
12-12-2008, 05:59 PM
Hi Steve,

I think you're right - that's why we would not use any heat source. The air would only be "warm" in that it would be warmer than the outside temperature - it would not actually be heated in any way. In theory, we would draw it from inside the top of the tower - this air is still pretty cold and dry in the winter. The top of the tower is not heated. It would be difficult to use outside air in that this would include the moisture that we're trying to avoid in the first place.

Hope that helps explain things better.

Thanks.

Ed